Category: Dating and Relationships
Due to recent events in my life, I have begun to question love and its role in our lives. Is it more trouble than it's worth? Does it help or hinder the human race as a whole? I will try to describe my ever-strengthening viewpoint in this post.
First, the question of love helping or hindering the species. Love is, for all intents and purposes, a purely biological function. Its role is to encourage procreation, nothing more, nothing less. Even companionship is meant to ensure survival: friendships keep us protected, and enemies keep us on our toes so we need that protection. Love is not only the deepeest form of protection, but also a mating ritual. That is why we have sex.
Evolution may have made these emotions red and rosy, not to mention we as a society tend to oppress the obscene and provocative, carefully tucking it away in our quest to ascend the social ladder to heights of power most of us only dream of. Again, this competition ensures our survival. It even extends into the bedroom: when we were cave dwellers, the strong survived and the weak were left for dead. Whoever had the biggest club was sure to be well-respected. This translates to men who dominate because of the size of their penis, and why so many myths persist involving the whole "size matters" philosophy.
Competition, like anything, though, can be taken to extremes. While this may have meant being left for dead in a sweltering cave a few million years ago, it now translates to being knocked right down off that ladder, leaving your pride shattered, your world unhinged. In love it means letting your guard down only to be won over by someone bigger, stronger and meaner than yourself, at least if you're a woman. Guys get to do all the dominating, controlling how the woman looks, acts and even to some extent how she thinks. Of course there are independent women out there, but they always existed; exceptions to every rule will always be somewhere in the world no matter how hush-hush their society keeps them. Now let's examine the role of that control and what it leads to. It can lead to the erosion of self-concept, self-esteem and self-worth. It often leads to divorces, broken hearts, affairs and unpaid debts. It also usually leads to a bitter rivalry between the ex-partners. While some of us keep this under wraps lest someone discover our "dark side", others seek revenge, making themselves look just as crazy, but, again, it all comes down to that desperate, unseen biological force at work demanding protection and affection. This is all to advance the species, but now more than ever we abuse this God-given power and let ourselves do foolish things in "the name of love."
So is it worth it? In my opinion, no--I've seen my own relationships, as well as my family's, take hellish rides that I wouldn't wish on anyone. And yet, that need is still there, that need for intimacy, for closeness, for touch. I know its roots are too deeply embedded to completely erradicate it, but I don't know how to come to terms with it either. But I am not writing this to ask advice on how to come to terms with it. That's probably impossible, just like it would be impossible to stop the process of speaking, or smiling, or crying. These are just human behaviors and I fully accept that. I really am putting this out here to get opinions on all that I've said, because I know it's quite an unpopular view, and if anything things like this need to be openly discussed because they are part of us. They are as much a part of our world as the sun rising each morning. We can't deny these dark undertones no matter how much we try, so let's talk about them.
my personal view is how you try to find it. if you force the issue trying to find love you'll hurt yourself. If however you just let it come to you it can be a very powerful thing. My gf i have now is part of me to the point now we would never leave each other even with the strain we have. The key i had to find her was to stop trying to find love, just let it come to me.
I'll start this with the disclaimer that I'm not trying to be harsh here, but you bring up some points that I find interesting.
You seem to have some very skewed ideas where it concerns gender. Your post seems to say that men are pretty much always controlling and dominating, women nearly always submissive, so to speak. You brought up the independent woman, but you mentioned her as the exception to the rule. May I ask what has skewed your idea of the genders to this degree? Women can be just as controling and dominating in their own ways. They may show it differently, but it's there. I can think of several couples I know where the guy is the more laid-back and passive one, and he's in a relationship with a domineering bitch.
Your questions about love are complicated. You ask if it's all it's cracked up to be. I guess that depends on what you think the definition of that is. Personally, I don't think actual love is how our society generally perpetuates it. I'm going to make myself sound really old with this next sentence, but here goes. I think our view of love, particularly my generation and younger, gets formed and skewed by media: books, movies, pop culture. It tells us we need to have this absolute immediate spark: fireworks and lightning bolts, that you just can't live without this person, that you can't be separated from them, out of this world physical chemistry and sex, etc. Mind, I'm not diminishing things like physical chemistry, but I think I make my point. People think they have all that, that it's love, and then, when the warm fuzzy wares off, the relationship fails because it had nothing to fall back on. It started out with this huge fire, so there's no where for it to grow.
I think my view of love has changed as time's gone on. Now it seems it should grow over time: someone you enjoy being with, doing things with, sharing things with. Being comfortable around each other, communicating, etc. Again, not diminishing physical chemistry, but there has to be more. So some people think they're in love when really the relationship is shallow, and then others may think they're not in love because it doesn't feel like what society says it should.
Perhaps that's what's lead to some of the, "hellish rides," you, or your family members have been on. what do you personally crack love up to be, or the better question, did you crack it up to be before you came around to the views you express in your post? If you cracked it up to be what society seems to say it is, then no wonder it doesn't reach those expectations. I don't know that any love can, or at least, not if it's to be long-lasting.
First, I just want to say I don't consider your post harsh at all, and I would venture to say that my original post was much more harsh than what you've said. To answer your question about my perception of the genders, my most recent relationship was with a very controlling person who completely made me change how I thought about love and relationships. If you want a play-by-play account of that, you can check out my topic "it's all too much" in Writer's Block. Since I made it perfectly clear what appened in that post, I won't go into detail here. Suffice it to say that this guy was everything I described men to be in the above post.
the thing is, I've had several relationships throughout my life, and most of them started with a basis of strong friendship. I had believed for a long time that having a foundation of trust and knowing one another creates a lasting relationship. Well, it doesn't--it just makes it that much more painful when the relationship does end. I have managed to stay friends with a couple of my exes, one of whom is my best friend, and I wouldn't change that for the world. But here's the complication: that same ex, who is now my best friend, and I were in a relationship for nearly 2 years. Though we were, and always have been, great friends and nearly always got along, I began to feel that our relationship was too platonic. You see, he doesn't want to have sex until he's married (he's 2 years younger than I) and I guess I just got too comfortable, and lost the physical chemistry. Then, last October, I went to a training center out in Pittsburgh to learn some daily living skills and all that. Almost immediately after I got there, I met someone, the now ex who I wrote about on the other board. Our chemistry was explosive, and I couldn't deny it. However, I've never been one to cheat, so I dissolved my last relationship without so much as a second thought, then had a wild, passionate fuck fest with the new guy. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but that's basically what it was. Eventually, he left the center (he had nearly completed training when I started) and things went downhill fast. When our relationship ended, I was left with a lot of unresolved anger, guilt and bitterness, and that's where I'm at now.
So is it better to be friends first? Not necessarily, I've found. But neither is just diving headfirst into the unknown. Is there a compromise? I don't really know.
You're asking some hard questions, and the problem is, that the answers are different for each individual, and thus every couple. No rights or wrongs here. Some people have to start as just good friends, some can dive right in there, though I personally wouldn't advise that second one. But that's just me.
I guess my only caution is this. I'm sorry you went through hell with this controlling asshole. I've been with men who are jerks, too. But, please do try not to class all men as that. There are good men out there, though of course it's the bad ones that get more press. It always is the negative that gets more attention than the positive. I'm guessing you're hurting, and probably pretty pissed off right now, hence the source of your views, and confusion.
The other thing is this. A lot of times, we expect our first relationship to be the one that lasts for a lifetime. I know it was that way with me. I genuinely loved the first man I seriously dated in 2001, thought I'd marry him. Needless to say, it didn't work that way, though I'm still great friends with him. Some people are lucky enough to have that be the case with their first serious relationship, but I'd say they're in the minority. It seems most people have to go through a series of loves, and heartaches, before they find that long-term person. It's easy to lose faith in the idea of love and relationships in there, but I hope that ultimately, yours can return. And, though the heartache part of it is an absolute bitch, we do learn something from every experience we go through. OK, sounding preachy here: shutting up now. LOL.
I'm sure my opinion won't be popular, but here goes: many relationships fail cause people expect their partner to meet their every need (I've been there, too).
experience has taught me that self love is the greatest gift. I'm a firm believer that you can't truly be happy with someone till you're happy with most aspects of yourself.
Mainly, I'm wondering why so many people hold onto these unrealistic beliefs and expectations when they get into relationships. I don't know that I ever overly idealized anyone; I think I just made some terrible judgment calls. I'm a realistic, down-to-earth person, and I notice flaws in people more often than I'd like to admit. I also consider myself quite accepting. Take my most recent ex, for example. He has Asperger's Syndrome, which may or may not contribute to his controlling tendencies, I don't know. Even so, since he was honest to me about it from the start, I respected him for that and tried to make the relationship work. But because of his condition, I put a lot of blame on myself afterwards because maybe I was somehow insensitive, or he couldn't help the way he acted, so I should have dealt with it.
How can I not, after going through this, look for alternative answers? So I've stripped the idea of love of all its dramatic human errors and exposed it for what it is, a chemical reaction, nothing more, nothing less.
You have put lots of thought in to your post, so I’ll do the same.
First I have to agree with Sister Dawn. The perception of love is what we learn from movies and TV, music, books, and it is not actual love, but lust or infatuation. You first post to me is where you say love is a biological function, and you go on to state why you believe your point. All that is not love. That is lust, or instinct to mate. Nature has built in to animals that need, and given them a reason to need, because of how it feel physically. Animals and we are animals, just a high form; don’t need to love to mate. Back than it was the alpha male that got more sex, because he could provide for his mates, protect them from others, and create healthier offspring. The female was mounted from behind, so sure a large penis was required to get inside and pleasure her. We now walk upright, so can mate many directions. This is still not love, but sex.
Now that humans are evolved we reason. We feel these driving feelings and we want to call it love. We want to possess our mates and keep them to ourselves until we are “out of love with them” than we don’t care who they mate with. In my humble opinion real love is when you have spent years with a person. You overlook their faults. You enjoy them outside the bedroom as well as inside. You think alike, you share same taste in things. There your best friend, as you pointed out you has experienced. You like them as people, and even if you don’t have the mating you still love them. The mating just puts icing on the relationship. What happened to you is you withheld your instinct and enjoyed a great and close friendship, when what you really wanted was both from your friend that was saving his for marriage. You were actually sexually frustrated. You got outside your box and met someone you liked and who rang your bell. He was not shy, so the sex was great, and you fell in lust. He took that away and left, so you are missing sex and companionship, so you are mad. You pointed out you over looked his faults, or things you knew in your heart in time you could not deal with. It was one sided. Your best friend is still keeping his safe, or you’d have gone back to him and forgotten the other guy. Soon as you find the friend with the sex you’ll forget him as well, but right now you don’t have it. It hurts to give so much of you and not have it returned. But that is still not love. Yes! Love is worth it, and so is sex. If we humans could learn to enjoy our instincts for what they are, I believe we’d find that true love. We’d not rush to get married because we need sex and companionship, but have sex and enjoy companionship because we need them in our lives. When a relationship goes bad we’ll look on the good side of it and what we have learned from it. From these lessons we’ll be better suited to be someone’s true love. The grass won’t be greener on the other side, because you’ve already tasted it, so the person you fall in love with we’ll be your life mate providing they don’t change. These is that risk, but it’s worth it. You can stay alone and be lonely, or you can enjoy sex and companionship and possibly find your true lover, or life mate. My favorite saying is you can’t make a man; you have to find one already suited to you.
first, the word love is a very broad word. It does not only entail sex. And also, i'm a christian, so forgive me for maybe radical views. Love is first of all putting someone else above your own needs, caring for someone, having compassion. god is the ultimate description of love, in my opinion. The greek origine of the word love is interesting. because in greek, love can mean so many things which we crammed into one word: It can mean affection, care, friendshiply love, motherly care, and eros, the erotic love. also I believe love is absolutely necessary, but it has been poluted and used wrongly, hence why people are being hurt by people who supposedly love them. I probably will start a nasty debate here simply by others harshly criticizing my believe, but here's what I found:
I first found true love in god. christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with a loving god who loves unconditionally and who is near. that then enables me to love others more selflessly. so yes, love is all that it's cracked up to be, but I understand that people are hurt because there are people who mistake lust with love, or the need of company with love. this is how I see it.
Yes love is all you describe, and when you first meet someone you can't have all that for them right away. We are people as you pointe out. Christian or not, love is way deeper than a relationshiip you have only had for a month or so. People can fall out of love over selfishness, and if you put the Christian spin on it God is not selfish, so.
So we have evolved so that our feelings carry more weight, our desires more complexity. Deep down, I think they are still the same desires and needs that drive us to look for those we find attractive, sometimes for shallow reasons and sometimes for deeper ones. As you rightly pointed out, we are animals, the most intelligent ones. But who's to say that we won't regress? Though this is way off topic, violence is a great example. Anger is an emotion we do our best to shove into the depths of our subconscious if we are socially conscious. Some, perhaps those with less intelligence or impulse control, express their anger outright, not caring who they hurt in the process because they don't know how to care about anyone. While society's conditioning does play a role in this, the anger was always there. It was, and still is a survival instinct. It protects us from physical and emotional harm, unless it's excessively used. the same can be said of love and sex today. Love is just another 4-letter word that people say whenever they see someone or something that pleases them, and that doesn't have to be in a sexual way. For example, "I love my car! I love my cat! I love my mom!" You get the idea. Sex too is often overindulged in. It's now more normal than ever. That's not to say we should go back to the days when torture devices were employed to stop people from masturbating, or Bible times when people were put to death for their lustful feelings. All it means is that we live in a corrupted, limitless state of mind where anything goes and nothing is beyond our reach. That brings us back to the hunger for power I alluded to in my first post. I think some people confuse power with love. It may very well give them the same adrenaline rush that falling in love does.
Am I jaded? Yes, I'll freely admit that. But this is something that I've put a lot of thought into, and the more I think about it, the more sure of my views I become.
But you "fthought you were in love" Anger is fine, but it passes with renewal. It is actual a wasted emotion on love, because the other person you "loved" is "loving" somebody else while you're standing in your anger rut refusing to give anything again, because you got bitten. Because we can reason, we should use it to decide that a few weeks of pleasure is not love, just pleasure. If we do this we'll stop "falling in love" until we are loving a person.
Yes, we do use the word, "Love," to describe a lot of things. It's one of the faults of the English language. I would not have put the Christian spin on this, even though I am one, but she made a good point. Other languages, like Greek, had words to describe differing kinds of love. I really wish we did, too. But we don't, and I think 9 times out of 10, it is clarified by context.
Yes, I don't blame you for being angry. I do know what you mean about some people viewing love only as power. I dated a man like that one. He said he loved me, when he didn't at all. However, he knew that he held power over me, and a damned lot of it. More than I ever should have allowed. It was a rush for him. It makes me sick to think of it now. It left me with some very fucked up ideas and emotions for a long time. But, I find my views of love changing, as I described in my first post on this thread, and I'd say they've changed for the better. You have to follow your own...path, I guess you could say, and see where it leads you. But I do fear that, by holding the views you do, you risk losing out on finding love one day, if you ever so desire it again. For your own sake, I hope they one day soften.
I'm not speaking just of my own anger here. I'm explaining how these primal instincts affect us all to one degree or another. Just because it happens to be my justification for feeling the way I do, it doesn't mean that everyone should. Society would dissolve into anarchy if that were to happen. However, it's not such a stretch to imagine it happening. It would free people from responsibility, empathy and common sense. Common sense is already becoming less and less common; empathy is on its way out too.
So what is your suggestion for applying comman sense and empathy to a relationship? Love?
I suppose so. I'm starting to see that this is yet another vicious circle that will never get resolved in my mind. I seem to create a lot of those.
Well friend. If it were me I'd forget trying to solve the unsolvable and just try to enjoy whatever relationships brought to me. Instead of going in to one thinking "this is the one" go in thinking "I am here until I am not to enjoy" If it is the one it will be, if not you will have had some pleasure for a season. There are just to many things in live that can get you you don't even ask for to let yourself stay bitter.
completely agree with the last post; very well said.
Love is most definitely worth it, but you have to approach it with as few expectations as possible. Stop worrying about whether the next person is *the* one. Stop worrying about what other people think or how they define things. Don't worry about heartache, we all go through it, and the only way to take on heartache is to go through it, not to avoid it, because if you avoid it, you will also avoid love and joy. You're young and you've got a lot of living to do. Enjoy your life and allow it to happen and allow yourself the joy without fear or guilt. I also agree that love doesn't happen all at once and does not necessarily last forever although if anything it can last for a very long time. I met my wife just as a friend and in the beginning we weren't even thinking we'd end up with each other, but as we talked and e-mailed and stuff, one day it just dawned on us, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we spent our lives together" and there ya go.
Agreed with Wayne and Alicia on this one. I read your post on the writer's board. I know you're hurting. What you say about love is true; it is biological, but so what? It's not all bad. Is it worth it? Yes, but you just have to find the right person, if you ever do want to search for him again. I hope you do, because really, being jaded and bitter won't grant you any solace in the end. Like it or not, love and sex are integral to the human animal. But if you can get past the bitterness and such, you will come out of it a much stronger, better person for all of it.
Hmm, I was just force fed this topic so I assume I need to post on it so I will..
Love to me is nothing more then a fad created for people who feel like they need something in their lives worth looking for. Way to often you hear love is worth all the bumps, bruises, and heartbreaks along the way?
I disagree, although there have been many relationships that have worked I have seen this thing people call, "love" create more tears then smiles leave more questions then answers and leave me wondering whether or not I live in a society where the majority of people are massacists.. Too many times I see people trying to force love to come rather then enjoy a solid trusthworthy relationship.. People become obsessed with hearing i love you 20,000 times per conversation... If love actually exists I would have to define it as a time shared with someone who makes you think they make you feel better then anyone else has ever made them feel before and the person who makes you feel worse than you have ever felt before. I have seen people literally quit on life because of love and what was the only way they brought themselves up? believeing they fell in love again.. How can people run back to something that made them feel so terrible?
As a child my dad warned me that touching the boiling pot on the stove would be a bad decision, I was a curious kid and did it anyway.. sure enough it burned, from that day on everytime my dad said the word, "hott" I wouldn't test it... Perhaps it is because i've never felt this feeling, but why do people keep running back to something that have burned them so many times..
I am happier then most people I know and I did it without love, so I don't understand this obsession with it.... Some call me young, some call me crazy, I call myself happy :)
(no offense to current couples or anyother love bug who might have taken offense to this)
Aah fire and rain, forgive me but you sound a tad like a feminist. I'd quite agree with Alisha in saying, that these supposed independent women are just as capable of being harsh as anyone. Furthermore, could this post perhaps be brought from some bitter rage? Sometimes, life is a thing that you have to role with. And in many ways, love inspies grate things look at the trogen war, or better yet the titanic. And I do believe, that in the event you actually cared for someone you wouldn't be so concerned with the idea of dominant dicks in the first place. And sex isn't necisarily bad, it's the experience we encounter that teach us the most when you think about it.
At the last post, it wasn't just this one particular relationship that has brought me down, although it did make me look around and think, hmmm, a lot of people display lots of undesirable traits that I otherwise might not have noticed. As I said, I don't look down on people for that, but as we are all human and having flaws is a part of human nature. Hell, I have mine, and this unwillingness to trust may be one of them, but we do become who we are based on our experiences. I met this particular person when I was at a vulnerable, transitional part of my life, and so I'll say that while I was spreading my wings to fly, he crushed them and crumpled me into a mass of broken dreams and hopelessness. Flight does have its perils... But as I said, I've had other relationships in my life that I look back on now and say wtf, but I'm not sure how much detail I actually want to go into on a public forum.
As to being a feminist, I don't see where you got that from. I never said I was better than anyone. These men who are so controlling and use their sexual power to lure the women in their lives in so they'll stay through every beating, physical, verbal or otherwise, obviously have deep-rooted issues of their own, and I do not look down on people who have problems. We all do, to one degree or another, to say that one person is better than another based on their ability to cope with life is nothing short of hypocrisy, and I hate hypocrites more than anything. In fact, my last boyfriend basically said, in a nutshell that he hates me because I'm depressed, but he displayed the very same traits that he so despised in me, whether he wanted to admit it or not. So call it feminism if you like, but I personally know it's not that at all, for that would be another form of hypocrisy right there.
the thing is, though, you have a choice whether or not to be bitter about things you've experienced.
there has been a ton of instances throughout my own life that could've lead me to that particular outlook, but I rose above it cause I knew it wouldn't get me anywhere. sure I talk about said situations when they come up, but with strength and happiness...not bitterness. that's just me, though.
Also you are allowing his opinion of you to rule your life, so in that cutting of your happiness, and for what?
They say that the same patterns in relationships repeat themselves throughout your life, or that you repeat the mistakes your parents made. Of course choice plays a role in this, you choose who you date, but by the time love enters the equation you put u with a lot more shit than you should. Whether this has to do with lust or love is up for debate, but I say that both have their merits, both have their ways of making you stay in a bad situation.
I like post 21, I didn't comment on it in my previous post because I had more pertinent things to say, but I will say a few things now about that post. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said we run back to the thrill of love, or lust, or whatever you believe it to be, because it's like a drug. The beginning stages of love are often associated with exhiliration and a boost in endorphins, which makes it addictive. Sex also does this, so it's no wonder the bond becomes stronger in a relationship after sex. you crave it, because your brain chemistry demands more of that high, if you will. It's really no different than doing cocaine or any number of other destructive behaviors. You do it even though you know it's bad because by that point you remember the good times, how it felt then, and you go back for more and more, longing for the good and putting up with the bad. Chasing the dragon, basically.